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Tomasulo Algorithm Homeworknow

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Todo list

Hey all, I (apparently re-) introduced the Todo list. Specific requests for editing assistance should be added there so that they're more easily seen, and preserved across archives. If there are any outstanding issues remaining from the archives, please copy them into the Todo list. Ham Pastrami (talk) 19:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Why are you messing about with the project page so much? There are other people who use it, the recent changes links are useful. MattOates (Ulti) (talk) 12:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I've added back the "recent changes" links (and a few other things that recently went missing). --Allan McInnes(talk) 17:11, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
No problem, if you didn't like the changes you are naturally free to revert or improve them. The thing is, judging by the lack of activity in the project I'm not so sure that they are that useful. My changes were intended to help people get into the project and up to speed without being deluged by a myriad of links that, to me, only seem to clutter the page. I mean, the point of a WikiProject page is to provide some kind of focus. Linking every possible shortcut that someone might use doesn't seem to be the best way of coordinating effort. If you personally use these shortcuts a lot, you can always make them part of your personal user page. Ham Pastrami (talk) 20:43, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Formal language

I think the article formal language has degraded severely over the last few weeks. Here are some milestones:

The degradation is probably due mainly to the activism of Gregbard, but the narrow (philosophical) POV of Philogo doesn't help either. I encourage anyone interested in the topic to comment on Talk:Formal language. If there is enough support perhaps we can revert the article to a sane earlier version. --Hans Adler (talk) 10:05, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

capitalization of eponymous laws -- opinions sought in move discussion

If you have an opinion on capitalization of "law" in titles, there's an open discussion on a move proposal in Talk:Moore's Law, an article in this project. Dicklyon (talk) 18:18, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

added a new page - cyber-physical systems

Hello, I added a page on cyber-physical systems, right now it's a total stub but hopefully people can add more to it. I've listed a few papers from the NSF workshop on CPS, and have some mobisys papers in mind, maybe some text books too. Hope people can help! Thomaslw (talk) 12:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

More pictures

So I got Fred Brooks and Michael Flynn, and I'll have Tom Sterling before the month is out. If you look at the infobox, you'll see that I recently added a bunch of turing award winners. Specifically, I added all of the living ones whose articles don't have pictures. Since virtually all computer scientists have email addresses, I think contacting each of them with a request is a feasible idea - and starting with the oldest of them is a prudent one. (I'd like to avoid a repeat of what happened with Robert Tomasulo; I emailed Fernando Corbato tonight) If anyone feels up to the job, I'd appreciate all the help I can get. Raul654 (talk) 01:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Tom Sterling done. Fernando Corbato emailed me back yesterday with good news. I hope to have his pic up soon. I've added the Eckert-Maunchly award winners to my to-do list. Raul654 (talk) 19:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I've been sending out a lot of emails trying to get pictures. I've created user:Raul654/Computer to help keep track of my progress. Also, apparently a great many article-worthy computer scientists are part of MIT's CSAIL. I'm in touch with the CSAIL photographer - hopefully I'll be able to get those articles illustrated in bulk. Raul654 (talk) 19:55, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

"Cycle"

I wanted to find more info on "cycles" per The Jargon File v4.4.7 http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/C/cycle.html

"The basic unit of computation. What every hacker wants more of.... One can describe an instruction as taking so many clock cycles. Often the computer can access its memory once on every clock cycle, and so one speaks also of memory cycles. These are technical meanings of cycle. The jargon meaning comes from the observation that there are only so many cycles per second, and when you are sharing a computer the cycles get divided up among the users. The more cycles the computer spends working on your program rather than someone else's, the faster your program will run. That's why every hacker wants more cycles: so he can spend less time waiting for the computer to respond."

I wanted more info on "cycle" e.g. What exactly does it correspond to in a non-slang sense? Is this term/concept still found useful today, or have subsequent developments in computing made this less relevant? It used to apparently be common for sysadmins to adjust things so that they received a disproportionate share of "cycles", whereas users whom they found annoying had their computers throttled back to one operation per decasecond - does that still happen much?

Our disamb page Cycle lists Instruction cycle. That article does not make clear to me whether this is the same meaning as the Jargon File sense (I think that it is, but I'm not sure.)

Would anyone care to either add something on this to Instruction cycle, or create a new appropriate article, or add content to some other existing article (and add a link to that article at Cycle)?

(I will not be doing this myself. If you have info on this, please do not simply respond here, but create article/content/disambiguation so that other Wikipedia users may benefit thereby.)

Thanks! -- Writtenonsand (talk) 13:38, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

All synchronous processors - that is, pretty much all the ones you've ever used - synchronize their actions according to some common clock. Each cycle (Instruction cycle) corresponds to exactly one tick of that clock. Yes, this is still a very relevant concept in computer science/engineering.
As for your final question, some older computers used to have a Turbo button which locked the system speed to some multiple of clock ticks (that is, instead of completing a cycle on every clock tick, they'd complete it on every 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc clock tick). This slowed the computer system down, and allowed the user to play some games that depended on computer system timing. Admittedly this has the potential for abuse, but it's rather easy to notice and fix, and I don't know of any instances where this was abused. You may also want to read our nice (Unix) article. Raul654 (talk) 14:00, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Just to add a few quick notes: You probably already knew that processor speed is measured in "Hertz" (Hz), but you might not have realized that Hz is defined as cycles-per-second. The greater the Hz, the larger the number of "clock ticks" per second. As of 2008, most processors are rated in the Gigahertz (GHz) range, which depending on who you ask is either 230 or 109 cycles-per-second.
Instructions take X number of cycles to execute, and operations take Y number of instructions to complete, but X and Y vary depending on the architecture of the processor. To avoid apples-and-oranges comparisions, MIPS (millions of instructions per second) and FLOPS (floating-point operations per second) are sometimes used in place of Hertz.
Finally, note that the inverse of Hertz is "period", defined as seconds-per-cycle. One would probably describe the period of a GHz processor in terms of nanoseconds (a nanosecond is 10-9 seconds). Groupthink (talk) 22:35, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject:Software

ulimit nominated for deletion

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ulimit. To what extent should Wikipedia cover Unix utilities and shell built-ins, without going against the "Not an instruction manual" rule? Since this is just one of many articles devoted to a Unix command, it is a question that the members of this project might be interested in. I'm posting here because Unix is listed as "belonging" to this WikiProject. --Itub (talk) 10:11, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Because of its centrality in practical computing (outside the Microsoft world and evne there to a large but not so obvious extent), Unix concepts are relevant to understanding modern computing. Fork, pipe, standard in and standard out, grep, more (or less), root, shell, ... are all, in my view candidates for Wikipedia article, without violating the NotAManual policy. There are certainly Unix aspects which don't (all those exec variants, for instance, or the differences between BSD and Sys V versions of ps, for another), but good sense will make the distinction. There's likely to be conflict at the edges, of course, but this is likely unavoidable, editors being editors. So I would vote against routine deletion for articles on Unix utilities. ww (talk) 03:23, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Rename proposal for the lists of basic topics

This project's subject has a page in the set of Lists of basic topics.

See the proposal at the Village pump to change the names of all those pages.

The Transhumanist 09:56, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme

As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.

  • The new C-Class represents articles that are beyond the basic Start-Class, but which need additional references or cleanup to meet the standards for B-Class.
  • The criteria for B-Class have been tightened up with the addition of a rubric, and are now more in line with the stricter standards already used at some projects.
  • A-Class article reviews will now need more than one person, as described here.

Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.

Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot (Disable) 22:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

A discussion

An important discussion on " Should WikiProjects get prior approval of other WikiProjects (Descendant or Related or any ) to tag articles that overlaps their scope ? " is open here . We welcome you to participate and give your valuable opinions. -- TinuCherian(Wanna Talk?) - , member of WikiProject Council. 14:51, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

All code in templates proposal

Please take a look at my proposal at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#All_code_samples_should_be_transcluded, and respond on that page. Thanks! Dcoetzee 00:25, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Assistance request

I've been forced into the position of asking for assistance with the content and writing style of an article I've been long editing. Since it's pretty central to computer use, and referenced in the WP's new user page, getting it to a good condition is important. The article is Password strength, and the history is more or less as follows. For some time, the article had been accumulating cruft or one kind or another, as many do, and earlier this year (see page history) an editor notice this and began a major revamp. I had also noticed it, but hadn't gotten up the gumption to dive in myself. So I decided to assist as I could. There was some difficulty (well covered on the talk page) over both technical issues and writing issues. Email exchanges (very much along the lines of the talk page discussion) failed to produce much progress.

The article is now stalled (3RR is on the horizon), but is in an unsatisfactory state, both from confusion about technical issues (eg, randomness v entropy in this context) and with respect to writing -- organization, and clear and helpful presentation.

Editor relations having become wedged, I have resolved to ask for assistance. Any here who are willing to lend a hand should look over the situation, and attempt to make improvements. Thanks. ww (talk) 03:48, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

"ToonTalk computer programming language" needs your help

Could members of this project please take a look at ToonTalk computer programming language and regularize the article title, as well as formatting and terminology within the article? Thanks. -- 201.17.36.246 (talk) 02:14, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Optimal classification

Hi - is there anyone in the project who works in pattern recognition and statistical classification? I'd appreciate some insights into the optimal classification article (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Optimal classification). Thanks! --Jiuguang (talk) 16:43, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Articles flagged for cleanup

Currently, 507 articles are assigned to this project, of which 173, or 34.1%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 14 July 2008.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. More than 150 projects and work groups have already subscribed, and adding a subscription for yours is easy - just place a template on your project page.

If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page; I'm not watching this page. --B. Wolterding (talk) 18:19, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Integrated banner with {{WikiProject Computing}}

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This project is a subset of the parent project WP:COMPUTING.This project articles contains both {{WikiProject Computer science}} and {{WikiProject Computing}} and possibly other descendant wikiproject banners also.

I am proposing the use of the integrated banner of {{WikiProject Computing}} , if there is a consensus among our project members...

Example :

{{WikiProject Computing|class=start|importance=Mid|science=yes|science-importance=low}}

will produce...

  • This project and its autonomy will remain the same...
  • No pages have to be moved as a task force.

The advantages of this are :-

  • Intergated banner which takes up less space and avoid clutter of different Computer related WikiProjects.
  • Greater co-operation and co-ordination among computer related wikiProjects.
  • Each WikiProject doesnt have to maintain an assessment department...Since the standards for WP 1.0 Assessment is same for all WikiProjects, single assessment is only required for all the computer related WikiProjects. This means more time for individual computer wikiprojects to help and improve the articles in their scope..
  • Seperate stats for quality and importance for both parent and descendant projects ( as before)
  • Catergory intersection of quality and importance available like Category:Amiga articles by quality and importance for WP:Amiga

Possible Actions:

Thoughts ?? -- TinuCherian - 04:29, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Oppose - I don't believe that every computer science article should also be a computing article, and furthermore I find these integrated banners highly cluttered. I would prefer the banners remain separate. Adam McCormick (talk) 20:39, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
Still Oppose - Computer science is not a subfield of computing. Computing really shouldn't cover topics such as Artificial intelligence, machine learning, data mining, algorithms or computational complexity. These topics are the meat of computer science but don't even require the use of a computer. By integrating the banners, you would force many topics that have nothing to do with computers, or information technology to be grouped there. This is not acceptable. CS is not a subfield of computing, Programming is, maybe, a subfield, but the meat of CS is not and grouping them is not correct. Adam McCormick (talk) 15:49, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Oh? I'm curious to know what approach would you use to do Artificial intelligence, machine learning, data mining, or computational complexity without computers (other than study them and never put them into practice) ;-) Diego (talk) 16:39, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
There are good examples in the area of, say ... Turing undecidability, which are mathematical proofs, and not something you'd implement as an algorithm. -- Or oracle machines, which are computers that could never be built, (at least, not as Turing machines .. perhaps quantum computers?) but the theory is still interesting. Please note that oracle machines are not arcane, they're commonly covered in undergrad texts on computing theory. I've been reading Barendregt's book on lambda calculus, and while its technically comp sci, 99.999999% of it will never ever be implemented as a computer program or hardware or anything -- its a math book, for all intents and purposes. linas (talk) 17:35, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Still oppose --Cybercobra (talk) 05:19, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, that's true, but the argument below is that or for those C++ folks, which is not a valid assumption. Adam McCormick (talk) 15:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm also reading it like , which is mostly true in a practical way (the exceptions that I listed below would be ) although it's not strictly true in an ivory tower sense. The wp:wikiprojects are not an ontology. Diego (talk) 16:20, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Java ftl... :-P. Anyway, now I'm confused. Is he saying 1) Computer Science is a child of Computing, or that 2) Computing is a child of Computer Science? 'Cause that is what is all depends on. — Johnl1479 02:02, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Ah, to hell with it, I still oppose — Johnl1479 02:04, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Oppose - computing != computer science. ␄ –Iknowyourider(tc) 01:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
May I know what exactly are the concerns in the integrated banner ?
The scope of Computing WikiProject is defined here...Wikipedia:WikiProject_Computing > Scope and Goals. On a broader view, it can said that the scope of Computing WikiProject is articles related to areas or subjects relating to computers , computing and information technology. Please note that WP:COMPUTERS was merged to WP:COMPUTING long time back. "computing" means using computers and other computing machines. It includes their operation and usage, the electrical processes carried out within the computing hardware itself, and the theoretical concepts governing them (computer science).
Isnt single banner better than the article being tagged separately by say WP:COMPUTING and WP:Comp Sc, WP:software etc...I feel that it avoids the clutter of banners better-- TinuCherian - 02:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps the kind of people who are interested in computer science are not interested in other aspects of computing, and v.v. ? Perhaps your proposal is similar to trying to merge WP:Linux and WP:Windows into, for example WP:Computer Users -- it might not be something that everyone would agree to. linas (talk) 03:21, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Support - after reading the new definition and clarification by Tinucherian. --Chet B. LongTalk/ARK 18:17, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

let me explain further. This is NOT_A_MERGER_PROPOSAL between WP:COMPUTING and WP:CompSc..... WP:COMPUTING is like a parent project ( call it umberalla project) to all computer related aspects and wikiprojects similar to WP:Christianity. People are welcome to work in any of the descendant projects like WP:Anglicanism or WP:CATHOLIC or even work with WP:Christianity as a whole. Similarly people are free to work in either WP:Linux or WP:Windows or both or even WP:COMPUTING depending on their interest.The autonomy of individual WikiProject remains the same ( see WP:Amiga or WP:Websites ). This effort is just a initiative to work in greater collabration between the computer related WikiProjects.

The seperate importance for each WikiProject helps to identify the importance of the article for each project seperately. Howover the |class= parameter which defines the quality of the article is same for all projects which is in accordance with the WP 1.0 Assessment standards.

Think of these advantages :

  • Only one assessment rating is needed , whether it is computing, networking , comp sc. etc ,which gives the WikiProject members more time in article improvement and less overhead for administrative activities.
  • A article may be a tagged by different computer related WikiProjects say WP:Computing, WP:Comp Sc. , WP:Databases ? Which is better ? Having a single banner which supports all or different banners which takes up too much space on the talk page.

Having said that, there is no clear line separating the two projects of WP:Computing and WP:Comp Sc.. All articles in WP:Comp Sc is within the scope of WP:Computing but not viceversa. The scope of WP:Computing is boarder and Comp Sc related articles account for a major portion of the articles. This calls for better interaction and co-operation of these WikiProjects -- TinuCherian - 04:38, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

For - I believe Computer Science is extended arm of Computing and there is no harm in having integrated banner for sister projects or parent-child projects, infact it makes tagging easy. Where ever there may be requirement a specific note may be left that explaining standing of article e.g. Bio-Informatics may come under Computing, Computer-Science, Databse, etc. as bio-informatics is related with them all(in field of Computation). There is very good example of same pattern being follwed by WikiProject India where articles fall under scope of different projects but we use integrated banner there listing different projects under umbrella of WP India. To conclude, I think it is great to integrate different inter-related projects in one banner. --Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider Rizvi (talk) 04:21, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
still for --Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider Rizvi (talk) 09:01, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
for - WP is otherwise cluttered with too many banner templates - a unified one is much better than two separate. Said: Rursus☻ 06:41, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
For - but with reservation. Computer Science is the top level (i.e. parent class) of the academic field. As such things like databases, AI, and even Software Engineering all really belong as a sub class of computer science. The only example I can think of that is computing but not computer science would be an article on the computer industry - and even then some may disagree. All that said, an integrated approach sounds good, and if computing has been chosen as the parent... so be it. Oboler (talk) 10:55, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
For - per Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider Rizvi. There may be some very abstract mathematical non-computing results that are of interest for Computer-Science and not for Computing (e.g. general articles in topology, order theory or formal systems), but having them enclosed by the former would give enough hint of this, and they should be the exception more than the rule. Also articles about particular tools or platforms (Windows, Oracle, Logitech...) are of interest for Computing but not really for Computer-Science, so the second is mostly a subset of the first. Diego (talk) 12:58, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Still For - this fusion is not about defining the fields of Computer Science and computing, is about joining forces in a practical way. Adding CS as a subsidiary project of Computing would allow for greater visibility to a more diverse audience, and would do nothing to change the platonic definition of both disciplines. Diego (talk) 16:47, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Oppose - the kinds of article qualities that might make for a good article on databases are in general quite different than the kinds of qualities that would make for a good article on comp-sci. I think it's healther to evaluate an article from several perspectives, driven by specialists, rather than some vague general one-size-fits-all, lowest-common-denominator evaluation. linas (talk) 17:25, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Comment - I think the integrated banner approach is very interesting. See for example Talk:Deep Impact (space mission). WP:WikiProject Space has a very broad scope, similar to this project, but they were able to organize the child projects appropriately. I think if there is a combined WikiProject for both Computing and CS, then the integrated banner makes more sense (you can incorporate software engineering, crypto, etc). --Jiuguang (talk) 18:30, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
For - I've not been very active, but I think that might give me a slightly more objective view. The argument of what is and what isn't Computing or Computer Science, is not in dispute here, from what I can tell? The banner is only displayed on the Talk page anyway, correct? Everyone opposing: your arguments would be valid if it were suggested that all Categories should be changed so that everything came under Computing, instead of Computer Science. The only thing I can see proposed here is the unification of administration of the projects, where appropriate, which I can only see being a good idea. Some review instead of no review, regardless of how generic or one-size-fits-all has to be an improvement (rather a Computing Project person than some unqualified random with too much time on their hands), and anyone can step in and dispute that review at a later time, or claim ownership by the Computer Science project specifically. Maybe there needs to be further discussion about what the joint banner means. I assume from the current format there is another version that says it has X importance to WikiProject Computing? Although I am "For" I don't really see why this is important, or really that great a help. If we spent this amount of time and energy on some collaborative editing of Computing/Computer Science articles instead of bureaucracy we wouldn't need to worry about administration ;D That last statement is under the assumption everyone edits for fun in their free time and gets enough TPS at work? MattOates (Ulti) (talk) 18:45, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak Support - I can easily see both sides of the argument here. In short, not repeating the arguments above, I think the advantages of integrating a banner outweigh the disadvantages. --ZeWrestlerTalk 00:29, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments: Altough there is a better support for the integrated banner use, I dont wish to proceed without addressing the concerns of those who oppose. To be fair, I had dropped a note regarding this discussion to the talk page of ALL the members.
Let me go through some of the concerns expressed by some of the project members :

  • Computer Sc is a subset of Computing ?
    • Ans : Probably not, but WikiProject Computer Sc is a subset of WikiProject Computing. I would have definitely opposed to idea of Categorization of Comp Sc articles under Computing. And here lies the difference. Dont be mislead by the name WP:Computing. The scope of WP:Computing is 'anything related to computers and computing' in simpler terms ( including the science of it ) . Please note that WP:Computers was merged to WP:Computing long back for remove redundant project infrastructure.
  • Will WP:Comp Sc lose its autonomy and independancy ?
    • Ans : No ! This initiative is to reduce the Bureaucracy and administrative overhead on computer related WikiProjects and enhance greater collabration and cooperation.Since the scope of these projects are loosely overlapped ,many members are already members of both the projects. As I had said earlier , this is NOT a merger proposal of WP:Comp. Sc and WP: Computing. Think of the advantage of ONLY one single quality assessment to be done for every article unlike each WikiProject member manually assessing the quality of the article for each project banner. Still each project will get seperate stats for quality and their own importance scale. The importance of a particular article for WP:Computing may of Mid-importance but for WP:Comp Sc, it may be Top-importance. This facility is available in the intergated banner. Tell me which is better ? a clutter of computer related banners on the talk page or an integrated banner which servers all purposes! Frnd, we are making the the changes only on the talk pages not the articles. The result : you have more time to work on the articles of your interest. Having said the above , we are extending this initiative to all computer related wikiprojects.

-- TinuCherian - 06:06, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment It is my opinion that WP:ComputerScience should not be a subset of WP:Computing. To answer the response to my last post above, graduate level CS courses in Machine Learning, Artificial Intelligence, Algorithms, Data Mining, and many other core CS topics do not rely on the use of computers. Most rely on advanced mathematics and bookwork, and may not even be implementable. Sure, many of the concepts are implemented on computers to show how they work, but they are not "Computing" concepts and are not specific to 'anything related to computers and computing'. They are no more a part of computing than Calculus is. Sure you use calculus to build computer programs but that should not put it under the Computing WikiProject.
I understand that you are not proposing that the two WikiProjects merge but you are forcing the improper assumption that WP:Computing should encompass all articles even tangentially relating to Computers which is not accurate and will only serve to inflate the size of that WikiProject and dilute its ability to improve its articles, not reduce any perceived bureaucracy. Adam McCormick (talk) 15:02, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment I've been largely inactive for a long while, so I'm a bit out of touch on the whole banner thing. However, reviewing the comments above, it would seem that: some articles fall clearly into both Computing and Comp Sci; some articles seem to fall primarily or exclusively in Comp Sci; and some articles seem to fall primarily or exclusively in Computing. So perhaps instead of replacing the current two banners with a single integrated one, both banners could be modified to have an integrated option. Then, if an article is primarily Comp Sci, it can use the Comp Sci banner; if it has enough overlap into Computing, it can reference Computing with its integrated option. Likewise, if an article is primarily within Computing, it can use the Computing banner; if it has enough overlap into Comp Sci, it can reference Comp Sci with its integrated option. If a given article has overlap into both but is contentious enough that one of the two projects doesn't want to use the integrated banner, then just use both. In other words: implement and use the integrated banners where they make sense, but not where they don't. Then you get to reap the benefits of an integrated banner where you can, without losing the benefits of having separate banners where they'd be useful. Would that be an acceptable option? – Zawersh 19:48, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I think that's an excellent suggestion. --Allan McInnes(talk) 22:49, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I support that option too. Best of two worlds. Diego (talk) 08:08, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
This would be a reasonable alternative, IMHO. --Cybercobra (talk) 08:21, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Very reasonable, but then let us decide the articles which doesnt need to use an intergated banner ? -- TinuCherian - 09:32, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Why not just modify the template and let the wikiprojects work the rest out? Seems a lot of work to decide this now for every single article... --Cybercobra (talk) 10:17, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment Two importance ratings is one too many. Can this banner possibly stick to one topic with one rating? (Thanks for the heads up on my talk page by the way and apologies if this has already been addressed.) -SusanLesch (talk) 19:18, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The seperate importance ratings are important and has the following advantages :
  • More flexibility for both parent and descendant projects. ( greater independance and autonomy , I would say)
  • An article might be of say Mid importance for Computing Project, Top Importance for WP:Comp Sc and even may be Low importance for WP:Databases. This helps such situations.

Please note that this initative is extended and in discussion with all the computer related Wikiprojects and there is more or less unanimous support now.

You may need not consider this banner integration as an overhead as I will make sure the present importance rating for this project is properly carried over to the new banner parameters during the banner intergation . I will make sure there is no or minimal overhead to the descendant project members for this banner intergation ( TinucherianBot is a hardworking Bot :) ). Whether or not the you may need to add importance rating to newer articles is left to the descendant WikiProject members.. -- TinuCherian - 04:54, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Oppose sorry, but because as said above "this is NOT a merger proposal of WP:Comp. Sc and WP: Computing". The idea of one or two WikiProjects breaking ranks to have their own special-cased conglomeration sounds confusing. And further confused if the suggestion above succeeded in making the banner flip back and forth from one WikiProject to another. Thanks for your suggestion but in my opinion it is probably better to conform to the model that is used by all of the projects. Regarding "Please note that this initative is extended and in discussion with all the computer related Wikiprojects and there is more or less unanimous support now", WikiProject Computing has no discussion at all. Maybe you can provide a better link. -SusanLesch (talk) 05:41, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Please see below :
  • Disussion for Intergated banner for the existing Task forces and absorption of Inactive Wikiprojects can found here.
  • Discussion at WP:Websites can be found here.
  • Discussion for WP:Computer networking can be found here
  • Discussion for WP:Software can be found here.

-- TinuCherian - 06:01, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment Can you please stop breaking up the threaded discussion? I for one have no problem with those other projects being brought under computing (Websites, software and Networks don't exist without computers), but just because there hasn't been any discussion from those projects (or at computing) does not create "Unanimous support". I for one think that there is not enough support shown ant any of those links to combine the templates. I do see that you are contributing the vast majority of the discussion which makes it difficult to follow at best. I don't see any consensus that this proposal go forward, and nothing you have said refutes the points made in opposition above. Adam McCormick (talk) 16:13, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I second the sentiments with regard to the non-threaded responses being hard to follow. --Cybercobra (talk) 18:50, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be better if WP:CompSci was completely divorced from WP:Computing, and instead got married to WP:Math? That way we could use the "integrated" mathematics banner for the WP:CompSci articles. This would more closely mirror how these disciplines are actually related in the "real world", where CompSci is academic, whereas Computing is a commercial activity. If there are overlapping articles, they could have two banners: one from WP:Math, and one from WP:Computing. This would make for a very clear, clean-cut distinction. linas (talk) 16:55, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Eh, IMHO, CompSci should be its own separate thing. Certainly parts are mathy e.g. algorithm articles, but other parts, e.g. programming language articles, definitely stray from mathematical subjects but are within the domain of CompSci. But this is all tangential to the discussion at hand, which is merely about merging banners. Cybercobra (talk) 18:50, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
linas, that is only true for a subset of computer science and for the way it is taught in some universities. Computer Science is usually: (a) It's own department (b) Part of the science department (c) part of the engineering department (d) part of the mathematics department. I don't want to be really geeky, but... I did gather raw data on this in 2001 by going through every department at every unversity teaching computer science in the US as well as Australia. It was for a survey an unfortunately I only have the results online for those that responded - Australia [1] , and USA [2]. Beware small samples! (the original data as I said was from every department and collected via inspection of their websites) Oboler (talk) 05:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Totals as of 19-Aug-2008

7 Oppose
5 Support
1 Weak Support

— Johnl1479 16:54, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Support/Opposes comments copied to below poll data.The user may shift to appropriate vote if I am wrong in reading your comments. -- TinuCherian - 07:22, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Support

  1. TinuCherian

Парень был уже мертв, когда прибыла скорая. Они пощупали пульс и увезли его, оставив меня один на один с этим идиотом-полицейским. Странно, - подумал Беккер, - интересно, откуда же взялся шрам.

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